c#205 CIV3`S NOT SO GREAT LEAP FORWARD

[LaoTze]

Originally posted by rhenric557
I put Communism in " " becuase it isn't an actual form of Government in a true Communist Society, There would be no need for a Government. Every man would Be the complete equal to the next as Karl Marx put it "A workers paradise". If you want to see the closest possible example of a working Communist Social System watch Star Trek.

Nor is capitalism as much of a free market as Adam Smith envisioned. Utopianism is a bit of a dream, so I'm not really going to debate its pros and cons. What I'm saying is that there could have been a politically working model of it that was not doomed to failure in the 20th century as the Soviet model was. There the idea was the leadership would remain in the hands of elite until the masses could rule themselves. It must be pointed out that fear of the West pushed any Communist society to a military. Just as most communists would admit that the Soviet model was not very communist. It would seem that since there is no "true" democracy in reality its not a crime that there is no "true" communist nationstate.

Anyways, the governments in the game are almost the exact same as they were in civ 2. I agree wholeheartedly that the designers could have provided all kinds of more options given the addition of culture into the game. Instead they left Democracy on top and left culture to flip cities and making conquering the world a pain in the butt.

[lorddread]

I want my fix!

So where's the fix for communism? Change its stats, and then defend it in the court of public opinion, ie, your fellow players.

[LaoTze]

Re: I want my fix!

Originally posted by lorddread
So where's the fix for communism? Change its stats, and then defend it in the court of public opinion, ie, your fellow players.

I think you failed to understand my point here. The Democracy model in this game is totally overpowered. Everything from workers getting 50% bonus to immunity to bribery. These are traits more in line with nationalism and patriotism not necessarily government style. In previous civ games culture was irrelevant. In civ 3 they just give dem. more benefits that IMHO are somewhat baseless. The governments in this are as simple as they were in the original civ. While many other complexities have been added into the game. There is alot of room for improvement in government choices. Anything from slider bars of work hours, wages, etc. If you really want a quick solution use shield production for communists as unit support. Considering wages are a fraction of what they would be in a capitalist society. And tone down the expenses of espionage so that a communist government can use its one in-game advantage. And remove the ridiculous advantages given to democracies. Did the US move a large portion of its factories in the face of a enemy invasion out to the Urals and still produce vast quantities of war materials? Its silly to say that only under a democracy can workers be motivated to work 50% faster?!

[rhenric557]

A bit of history for you LAO, A great deal of the T-34 tanks used by The Soviets in WWII were built by Cadillac here in the US. Along with the Bell Air Cobra, a fighter widely used by the Soviet Airforce in WWII. Yes they did a wonderful job of moving their industry base, but so did the Chinese who at the time were not under yet under a communist thumb. It has nothing to do with Governments it has to do with the fact that they had to do this or die.
And your forgeting it is a game. Communism is pretty much based on the Soviet version, And Democracy the US. The Soviets collapsed becuase of their economic weaknesses. Which is what communism does in the game.

[lorddread]

Commies vs Demmies

Besides Lao, if you don't like either the communist or democracy model, change it. Let us know what you changed and if we agree with you, will make the same changes in our systems.

Was it in CTP that had the panel where you could change the hours, wages and food the people ate? That would be a great benefit to this game.

[Dinner]

Re: Governments

Originally posted by lorddread
I would like to see more governments. In CTP as you got to new ages, new governments appeared. The last is communism if I am not mistaken. Why not have something like the Corp Republic or Virtual Democracy or even something new?

Here we get to one of the most disappointing aspects of the game as it currently exists. The lack of depth. I wish there were more technologies, more government types, more units, and more ages. CTP2 had them; why doesn't Civ3?

Hopefully, this problem will be (at least partially) addressed by Civ3:PtW.

[Dinner]

Re: Commies vs Demmies

Originally posted by lorddread
Was it in CTP that had the panel where you could change the hours, wages and food the people ate? That would be a great benefit to this game.

Yes, it was the CTp series that let you do this. CTP1&2 also had lots of extra "fluf" like satistics, charts, graphs, histograms, and what not. I don't think it would cost much to include these types of things and it should be relatively easy for a computer to compile stats so I hope Firaxis decides to include them in the expansion pack. After all Civ2 had some of this. Why doesn't Civ3?

[lorddread]

1 vs 2

Originally posted by Oerdin
CTP1&2 also had lots of extra "fluf" like satistics, charts, graphs, histograms, and what not.

There was a call to power 2? Where the heck was I? I would have bought that instead of this!

[Coracle]

Re: Re: Commies vs Demmies

Originally posted by Oerdin


Yes, it was the CTp series that let you do this. CTP1&2 also had lots of extra "fluf" like satistics, charts, graphs, histograms, and what not. I don't think it would cost much to include these types of things and it should be relatively easy for a computer to compile stats so I hope Firaxis decides to include them in the expansion pack. After all Civ2 had some of this. Why doesn't Civ3?

Answer: marketing decision that dumbed down the game to appeal to a wider audience.

[Capt Dizle]

This is one time I have to disagree with Coracle. There is no question that Firaxis dumbed the game down to make the AI more competitive.

There is no question that Firaxis also dumbed the game down to appeal to a greater audience, they felt SMAC was over the head of the target market.

But the reason that the fluff was not there probably had more to do with the abbreviated developement cycle. They just had time to get a rough beta out the door, so they had no time to add fluff. Since meaningless fluff would appeal to the target market, I am sure they would have done some of it had they time.

[lorddread]

Tee Time

It tees me off to no end though that we have to pay for the other half of the game. And software companies wonder why there is so much piracy online.

Frixaxis is beginning to become the Microsoft of the 21 century

[Capt Dizle]

There is piracy and then there is piracy.

[MarkG]

we have to pay for the other half of the game

it's more irritating to read things like "have to pay". if you feel it's not worth the money, if you fell you've already payed more than you should, if you somehow feel cheated, then do NOT pay any longer!
it's YOUR choice.

[LaoTze]

Originally posted by rhenric557
A bit of history for you LAO, A great deal of the T-34 tanks used by The Soviets in WWII were built by Cadillac here in the US. Along with the Bell Air Cobra, a fighter widely used by the Soviet Airforce in WWII. Yes they did a wonderful job of moving their industry base, but so did the Chinese who at the time were not under yet under a communist thumb. It has nothing to do with Governments it has to do with the fact that they had to do this or die.
And your forgeting it is a game. Communism is pretty much based on the Soviet version, And Democracy the US. The Soviets collapsed becuase of their economic weaknesses. Which is what communism does in the game.

Why thankyou for proving my point which was why does only democracy get worker speed benefits? :-) At any rate the Russians built 30,000 tanks a year once in full swing, the US built an equivalent number. However, US industry dwarfed the Soviets in aircraft and ships. And the US didn't loose most of its Heartland to a foreign invasion if you really want to discuss production capabilities. Please explain the comment on China though.

I'm aware its a game. I also don't think the US has to win every friggin time which is the main point of my posting to begin with. Thats where the Americanism vs. Communism comment came from.

[LaoTze]

Re: Commies vs Demmies

Originally posted by lorddread
Besides Lao, if you don't like either the communist or democracy model, change it. Let us know what you changed and if we agree with you, will make the same changes in our systems.

Was it in CTP that had the panel where you could change the hours, wages and food the people ate? That would be a great benefit to this game.

CTP:2 probably spoiled me with the governments. I appreciate your offer but the entire government structure in this game needs a complete overhaul. In its simple state the best fix is to switch maintenance back to shields so that military support is not so easy for Democracies. Gold would be fine for support if the game charged higher gold for bigger units giving some kind of benefit to the cheaper wages in a communist government. However, even thats not an option so what do you want me to tell you here? They introduce nationalism and culture but seem to think that only democracies have patriotism. IMHO the simplicity of the governments drive me nuts. One of those they could have done so much more kinda things. The US is a very successful government but what about all the other Democracies out there? It would be better if they had looked at several democracies from less industrialized nations and put their stats somewhere inbetween. Just as the Soviet model wasn't the only one to work with. Rhenric is right they used the Soviet model and assumed it would fail in the long run. The US would not be a beacon of the free world if it flipped to communism in times of war now would it? Perhaps a government switching penalty needs to be put in to prevent using communism as a war time economy only. These are things I can't just tweak on my own.